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October 19, 2006

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Steve Marx

Charles, I'm having trouble following your connection between WYSIWYG and retyping. The problem was that it was impossible to change a part of the contract while guaranteeing that the rest of the contract remained unchanged. That problem is solved by using a text editor, WYSIWYG or not.

I agree that the iterative software process suffers from a similar problem: changing one piece of a large system usually doesn't guarantee that the rest of the system is unchanged. To fix that problem, we'll need a way to quantify the dependencies (and perhaps reduce them when they're prohibitively numerous). Then, as with the contracts, we could change one clause and be guaranteed that the other clauses remain the same.

Is that what you're suggesting? You don't make it clear how you intend to address that problem.

Charles Simonyi

Dear Steve,

You are right in that "normal" word processing also has the retyping advantage I attributed to WYSIWYG. I've just bought through abe.com an antique copy of the Algol 60 report that was produced in 1960 on a Flexowriter without retyping. The report was stored on 8-level paper tape which was played through the teletype-like machine and a new tape could be punched with corrections - a very early example of what you are talking about. But I think you will agree, that before WYSIWYG this was not a realistic possiblilty for most people; in other words WYSIWYG made the largely theoretical advantage accessible to large number of people.

The quantification of dependencies that you mention is embodied in the generator. Some say that this may be hard to do. But programmers, for better or worse themselves already express the dependencies in their daily work, and the generator is just a more explicit, more permanent, and re-executable manisfestation of what already exists. The generator is described in other posts in this blog.

The advantage of generation is available today in many special instances: there are many Domain Specific Languages (DSLs) and many generators, just like there were many word processing systems before WYSIWYG: from Daconics, from Wang, from IBM and Xerox of course. But we need some overarching unification to make the benefits practical for more people and that is being argued here.

Steve Marx

Thanks for your reply, Charles.

I agree with your points. I think WYSIWYG wasn't what enabled "safe" edits to be made, but it is what enabled a large number of people to be capable of making those edits.

Perhaps we also have the same two issues with programming. It's possible to make "safe" (== independent) changes to software now with effort, but it will take further language work to enable the masses (domain experts) to have that power themselves.

I'm still quite hazy about what exactly you guys are building, and I'm quite curious, since I share your interest in solving these problems. I'm eagerly awaiting more public information. :-)

Dave

Any chance of getting video or audio of the OOPSLA presentation?

Magnus Christerson

Dave,
I am not aware of any audio/video, but you can get the paper and presentation from our website.

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JTD

I have a problem with MS Word. In some documents (not all), if I am editing it, and I want to center-justify one line, and regardless of whether I put the cursor in the line or highlight the whole line, it ends up center-justifying the entire document (bad!), and I cannot un-center-justify the mess unless I control-Z and un-do the function. What gives?

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